Ironfist - Too strong

I have o say that on small Maps IronFist has a huge advantage at the start, it is basically equal to having 50% more troops for free. You have a bonus 50% troops above your production limit, while no one else can produce more than their limit, early game this is huge, if your enemy rushes you, they already lost. I will admit , it is not impossible to defeat an IF player, simple by out expanding him and playing smart, but for the most part, it is the most overpowered strat, I think nerfing the hp bonus by 1 would put it in line with other strats.

agree or disagree?

Completely agree. IF is very overpowered, as also stated in other topic's. It really needs a nerf, money, HP or range.

No no no to nerfing HP bonus. It was at +2 previously and it was a terrible strategy.

However, I do agree it is overpowered. In my view the problem is that it is far too easy to expand with air transports. I suggest adding -range (maybe to air transports only) or making them a lot more expensive. The latter solution is bad because it can be avoided on high starting cash maps still.

IF is supposed to be slow-but-powerful, and with air transports its just powerful, not slow at all, thus it loses its drawbacks.

I think it's okay, I can easily beat IF with no problems (and I have beaten aristo many times, whom is arguably one of the best IF players).

The range for it to be overpowered is basically bordering as starting countries; then it is unbeatable.

I agree completely IF needs to be nerfed.

I think making unit more expensive will cut the extra edge it has in small maps.

I agree. But it should also be given a boost as well as a nerf.

> +2HP
> -1 movement range

This would make it less powerful but also more playable in large map games. Anyone agree?

I think the air transport and transport need to cost the same as in GW and there should be 10+ cost per unit. This should even things out hopefully without killing the best features of the strategy. Otherwise we are left with range and and Hp again...

- 1 movement allows militia to move, this would change the strat too much.

Написао MajorKill, 15.10.2011 at 18:50

I think the air transport and transport need to cost the same as in GW and there should be 10+ cost per unit. This should even things out hopefully without killing the best features of the strategy. Otherwise we are left with range and and Hp again...

Too much nerfs.

A classic example was that the little movement decrease to PD infantries worked really well to balance things. In my opinion we don't need +cost or -hp. My suggestion is to decrease transports and air transports movement range by 1 more, which will prevent players to "avoid" the movement nerf of other units.

Написао Pinheiro, 16.10.2011 at 08:15

Написао MajorKill, 15.10.2011 at 18:50

I think the air transport and transport need to cost the same as in GW and there should be 10+ cost per unit. This should even things out hopefully without killing the best features of the strategy. Otherwise we are left with range and and Hp again...

Too much nerfs.

A classic example was that the little movement decrease to PD infantries worked really well to balance things. In my opinion we don't need +cost or -hp. My suggestion is to decrease transports and air transports movement range by 1 more, which will prevent players to "avoid" the movement nerf of other units.

Well, we definitely need to do something with air-transport... I would have gone with the cost as it would make the air-transport or transport more precious to loose... Decreasing a single range is another way of slowing down a IF player but, doesn't really kill the edge at the start of the small map games. Most IF players tend to stay compact and don't over rush. Taking away a little on the range of their air transport will do almost no change in my opinion.

Lol you guys are acting like IF isn't an expensive strat, they can't air transport until they are rich just like every other strat.

Написао Fruit, 16.10.2011 at 16:00

Lol you guys are acting like IF isn't an expensive strat, they can't air transport until they are rich just like every other strat.

That doesn't mean it isn't OP. And it isn't too expensive in Europe as long as you're fighting countries fairly nearby. You can usually jump from city to city unscathed in most regions.

Maybe the units should get +2 rather than +3 HP? That would balance out this ratio of OPness to cost of being OP.

Transports now have -4 range, and air transports -5

@Fruit I disagree...sorry mate but, IF Austria players still tend to buy air transports so do IF UK players.

On topic I think I need to clarify my previous statement in more detail:

IF is a great strategy ... I don't think the +3 HP should be cut down to +2HP and have to agree with Pin that we can't slaughter the strategy just caz we want to...

To be honest some strategies work well in in certain maps some don't work at all... For example NC will work on ocean maps... does it need to be nerfed ... NP certainly no...

What we are talking about is balancing the strategy to make the over powering part less likely to effect game play...

I am sure Pin and the rest of the mods are more aware of the game balancing than I am... and their comments outweigh mine caz this is theri job and my opinions are just that: Opinions...!

Yeah, play around with it and post here if you have a comment on the new balance. I found its easy enough to expand in Europe still, but thats all I tested out.

I'm never using IF ever again, the expansion is horrible and now you've made it so it is truly a europe only strat, I used to play eurasia with it but now I don't think I could possibly win with it (maybe with general movement, which I am planning to get)

Okay, here's what I think now: to balance any strategy it must be able to be defeated bu any other strat, as well as beat any other strat. So why don't we do some testing with different strats to see what's truly OP on what map against what etc.? If anybody's up to this i'd be glad to help, because it seems like a lot of strategy's need fine tuning

Hey I've done some tests with IF (some expansion tests), It would be a lot better and more balanced (making the strat usable again) if you made it -3 and -4, It is still weakened a lot due to the movement nerf but it's not completely broken due to it. Please take this into consideration

I say this because even a transport from Marseille (with units from lyon), un-upgraded infantry cannot even reach rome, that is really bad range.

Hello, the air transport nerf has been a bit too much, as arguably the best IF player and most experienced with this I see this:

SM: +2 on air transport (and bomber), bomber minus air transport range is 2
BZK: +3 on air transport (and bomber), bomber minus air transport range is 2
Anything else: bomber minus air transport range is 2
GW: -2 on sea and air transports, bomber minus air transport range is 4 (this is the strat with slower transports)

IF: -3 on air transport, bomber minus air transport range is 5

Air transport extra nerf should go to -2 instead of -1, at the moment air transport range+infantry range (8+4=12) are less than bomber range (13). If it gets the +1 everything goes into balance and the extra nerf still does its job without crippling the strategy (I also used IF on eurasia from time to time, at the moment its out of the question).

Написао Aristosseur, 04.11.2011 at 19:53

(I also used IF on eurasia from time to time, at the moment its out of the question).

I have been trying it a lot lately and it's still playable in Eurasia and even whole world games depending on the situation.

Написао Pinheiro, 04.11.2011 at 19:58

Написао Aristosseur, 04.11.2011 at 19:53

(I also used IF on eurasia from time to time, at the moment its out of the question).

I have been trying it a lot lately and it's still playable in Eurasia and even whole world games depending on the situation.

Say you're in carry position, you have no chance of reaching front and the buffer will die, you HAVE to play front and front in a place where cities are relatively near, in asian side it's not possible.

Написао Pinheiro, 04.11.2011 at 19:58

Написао Aristosseur, 04.11.2011 at 19:53

(I also used IF on eurasia from time to time, at the moment its out of the question).

I have been trying it a lot lately and it's still playable in Eurasia and even whole world games depending on the situation.

That's a bit of a stretch. You can hardly do more than fight regional battles.

Let's not forget though that Iron Fist still rapes in Europe and is a very strong strategy indeed, particularly with Austria against other <5k countries. In fact, IF Austria can prove strong competition for any other country in Europe regardless of its income or manpower in many cases (especially when the players spawn quite far away from each other and have time to expand and consolidate).

I personally think that IF is just fine at this point in time. Let's not forget that Iron Fist is a paying members' strategy so it must have a competitive advantage over other strategies or it won't be compelling enough for players to be drawn into purchasing the feature pack or a subscription.

Iron Fist should remain as it is, it is more or less balanced with most other frequently-used strategies. The only thing that needs to be done now is the strengthening of underpowered strategies such as Lucky Bastard and Naval Commander (the penalties on land units are far too extreme!).

In my opinion, IF is good as it is. While in close quarters (IE: The compact part of Europe, Western Africa, and the American East Coast) it may have a large advantage over other strategies in battles, you have to take into account the fact that they can't fight as many battles because they can't reach certain places quickly enough. Any long-range attacks they may plan will be easily countered because of how early you'll see them.

As well as the fact that as soon as they take that one small area, there's almost always a much less compact area blocking them off or slowing them down afterwards (Russia, some of Western Europe, Mid-US, and especially oceans)

@GNAT

Somewhere in this thread, it was stated that IF can use air transports to a higher advantage, and move quickly accross a map. If I could buy more transports, more capactiy, and better range, I can start with Germany and by the third turn already own 25% of Russia, Italy, France, and Sweden/Norway/Finland, as long as I play my cards right. That is a huge advantage.